As most of you already know I work for a pretty small consulting company. When I say small I mean less than 10 total employees. I recently was approached by the head of IT of a somewhat local (~40 minutes away) manufacturing company to interview for their Sr. Network Admin position they have open. They are a large global company with 10,000+ employees. That is a huge swing in work environment for someone like me. Their networking team alone is the size of the entire IT staff at my current employer. I actually have done 3 interviews already. I basically did the interviews because I figured what is the harm in at least interviewing. After 3 of them I am starting to think this could become a serious relationship and they might actually make me an offer.
Now that we have the back story out of the way I am looking for advice from those of you that work in networking for large companies. What can I expect in work/life balance, red tape, etc. According to online research the going rate for this title in my area is between $80-100k/year and I was wondering if the large company headaches are worth the salary/benefits/etc.
Totally depenends on the company and what all policy they have in place.
A good change management policy means less down-time and stuff is well planned out and nothing happens in a huge hurry.
A bad change management policy means sooo much more time at work cause you have to do tons of paperwork, and litterly everything goes to the change managment group: you want to no shut an access port with nothing plugged in? You have to come in at midnight for that (I don't work for that place anymore).
A good re-imbursment policy is great, I went from taking 3 months to get re-imbursed for a $200 expense to getting it within a few week.
Honestly I greatly prefer my larger company to my smaller company (the smaller company sucked balls though)
I love my job at Major Multinational Firm with over 100,000 employees. However, I knew the job was dangerous when I took it... to wit:
1. Follow-the-sun support can have me up at odd hours to assist or train my counterparts around the world.
2. Vendors are much more aware of their relationship with us... but that can also mean vendors going over my head to counter technical arguments with financial ones.
3. Much more specialization, with job rotation allowing for exposure to new technologies as opposed to having to learn all of them at once.
4. I am very lucky in that I have some exceptional managers and co-workers. There are places that are going through hell...
Which brings me to my next concern: mergers and acquisitions. Big companies do these all the time, and they can be highly disruptive and political. Also bankruptcies... these result in massive staff turnover and restructuring. Watch out for those.
There's also the industry sector... this determines what kind of paperwork will swamp you. If it's medical, HIPAA and FDA will be the cause of much of your documentation. If it's financial, welcome to SOX and PCI-DSS. Defense? DoD boys will have some special paperwork for you that you'll never be able to complain about to anyone without the proper security clearance.
In my view, it's a different set of problems that are pretty much on the level of whatever problems you leave behind. Compensation tends to be much more fun, though, especially if you're in a big-bonus industry during a banner year.
Please see also the "Problems of a Company of a Certain Size" thread. It's humor, but there's a lot of truth in that humor... http://www.networking-forums.com/index.php?topic=201.0 You posted a few there, so you know what I'm talkin' about. :pub:
I just left a large manufacturing company a little over a month ago. I had a lot of complaints. I prefer smaller companies.
The large company I left:
- Small team of 4 covering 6 continents, one guy was in a lot of meetings and another wasn't doing much. So really a team of 2.
- Company wouldn't let us hire for the 2 open positions we had.
- Technology wasn't always at the top of the list.
- Each manufacturing plant got to decide if they ultimately wanted to purchase something or not.
- Lack of management support for a globalized support team. Some sites still paid contractors and/or full-time staff and circumvented our work only to ask for help later.
- Unions controlled the plants and dictated a lot of things they shouldn't have.
- Equipment upgrades were hell to get funding for because of number 4 and the fact that there wasn't much of a budget for us.
- Change management was a PITA if it meant any disruption to manufacturing. And I don't mean just people complaining, systems so old that a network drop means server reboots that can take hours to get all systems back online causing production to halt. And all this because some moron fired the programmers that knew the systems before they ever upgraded them.
- We got acquired by a much larger company that made things slower and moved an already slow decision process overseas creating an even slower process with more levels to churn through.
- Way too many levels of management made communicating needs even worse.
I thought of it as government. Way too many people to get anything done efficiently. Too many people that feel they control their own kingdoms. And so many people holding down a job that shouldn't be there.
But you can find many of these things at many different sizes of company, I just have a good way of picking bad companies :wall: Small company I'm at now, ~120 people, is pretty awesome plus the whole team here is motivated and knowledgeable about what they do.
Quote from: deanwebb on December 22, 2015, 12:07:14 PM
Please see also the "Problems of a Company of a Certain Size" thread. It's humor, but there's a lot of truth in that humor... http://www.networking-forums.com/index.php?topic=201.0 You posted a few there, so you know what I'm talkin' about. :pub:
Yea some of the things in that thread are the kind of things that have me concerned about such a move lol.
The mergers/acquisitions point is a good one. I hadn't even thought about that. I know there are trade-off's of problems from small to large I am just trying to get a concept of how many good vs how many bad trade-off's.
@dlots, That is the kind of stuff I am talking about with the expense reimbursement. To me at a small company waiting even a few weeks seems crazy. If I have $200 expense I just say "Hey Bill I need reimbursed for $200 for such and such", "Bill" then cuts me a check same day lol.
Everyone here is giving really good advice. But yeah, it really depends on the company...
The questions you listed all need to be asked in the interview.
"Large" is also very relative. How many servers, switches, routers, firewalls? What is the ballpark annual budget for IT, or what projects are approved for the next year?
BUT... I have been in your shoes too and a jump like this is what propelled my career.
Ask yourself, what will this job do for my career? if you like what you come up with then do it!!
Best of luck dude!!
I spent 4 years trying to get into SAIC, when finally I got in, I was a number and a body to fill a spot. LOTS of corporate training. ~15K employees.
see this thread here for more information on comparing companies of certain sizes.
http://www.networking-forums.com/index.php?topic=201.0
Yes "large" is relative. ~10,000+ employees for some of you is still small but for me that is gigantic.
I definitely see it however as a potential career stepping stone. The 3 interviews I have had so far have also been great. Seems like a good IT team with a good management team at least on a personality level.
Hey, if you like them and they seem like a sharp bunch that cares about what they do, join in with them.
If, however, they sound tired or dull or like everybody just takes it easy there... keep looking, unless the money is fantastic. Then take the job and keep looking while you're there.
Whatever you do, you don't want to work at Kruger Industrial Smoothing... or work there for long... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-NYDW5whpw
The typical pros and cons of large orgs (process etc.) is well covered already by others. However I'd add - IMO unless its a telco, cloud services provider, etc. then moving from consultancy/VAR/vendor to customer will feel like going backwards. You will be handcuffed to one environment. But even more importantly, exceptions aside (e.g. banking), where the network is a cost centre not a profit centre, you will be fighting a rearguard action all the time.
Hence why I said telco, cloud provider etc. Banks for example can be an exception because their environments are so complex and they rely so heavily on them and have regularory issues preventing use of public clouds so they do focus and prioritise IT (typically).
With how small the consultancy company I work for is I don't really see it feeling like going backwards from a career perspective. Since we are small our clients our small so the projects I get to work on aren't massive or life changing in any way that I would miss. In fact during the last interview they were telling me about an upcoming wireless project they had coming up first of the year that from the sounds of it would be bigger than anything I have ever done as a consultant.
At times you will feel like you want to go somewhere that deploys dlinks and half duplex netgear stuff.
It has its ups and downs. I personally have been exposed to a ton of technologies at a large enterprise which makes me happy but at times its overwhelming.
Sounds like you want these opportunities. Also sounds like you like the guys you interviewed with. Bigger companies don't mean bigger problems, just different ones. If you do sign with them, do so with confidence.
Quote from: Nerm on December 22, 2015, 08:57:48 PM
With how small the consultancy company I work for is I don't really see it feeling like going backwards from a career perspective. Since we are small our clients our small so the projects I get to work on aren't massive or life changing in any way that I would miss. In fact during the last interview they were telling me about an upcoming wireless project they had coming up first of the year that from the sounds of it would be bigger than anything I have ever done as a consultant.
If you are a consultant now, and the new opportunity if a real permanent gig, with all things in your favor, take consideration, Having comfort in knowing when your next meal is coming is a real blessing.
All this aside I'd say do it, because even if it turns out not to be what you want, I assume you're young and you'll learn a ton of stuff about both networking and business that you can use for the rest of your career.
Ha, is 31 still young? Doesn't feel like it sometimes. lol
Quote from: Nerm on December 23, 2015, 11:22:52 AM
Ha, is 31 still young? Doesn't feel like it sometimes. lol
Just wait another 20, there was a quote somewhere that said something like, " no matter how old you are, you still feel like you are in your 20's" just with a LOT more life experience. even at 50, I was taking my skateboard out for a semi-regular spin, not any more, at least maybe till I get a helmet, but I may think about hanging it up after I landed in the ambulance.
Update: Well they made an offer. The offer was a little less than I expected from a large company but still a good 30% more than what I currently make at a super small company. I would lose a lot of the schedule flexibility type perks I have with a small company but I am beginning to think the positives of this new opportunity outweigh the negatives.
Congrats man. The extra pay will be nice and the experience will likely be worth its weight in gold - good or bad.
Awesome news. 30% bump in money is good... how do the benefits stack up? Those can translate into less money spent with the new company than at the old, making for a hidden bump in take-home pay.
super small company = no benefits
large company = health/vision/dental + 401k
Quote from: Nerm on January 05, 2016, 03:02:01 PM
super small company = no benefits
large company = health/vision/dental + 401k
Be sure to figure the monetary value of those things when comparing other opportunities.
:tmyk:
(http://www.gameondaily.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/GIF-obama.gif)
hahaha...I have two kids college to prepare for so I will not be making it rain lol.
Quote from: deanwebb on January 05, 2016, 03:12:36 PM
Quote from: Nerm on January 05, 2016, 03:02:01 PM
super small company = no benefits
large company = health/vision/dental + 401k
Be sure to figure the monetary value of those things when comparing other opportunities.
:tmyk:
there was something in the back of my heard regarding consideration of your total income to include all the benefits/salary/timeoff/perks to figure your total income.
don't remember the exact wording bu that's the jist of it.
I have accepted their offer. Just too big of a career advancement opportunity for me to pass up. Now I just have to figure out how to tell my boss of 11 years I am leaving.
Quote from: Nerm on January 13, 2016, 02:42:36 PM
I have accepted their offer. Just too big of a career advancement opportunity for me to pass up. Now I just have to figure out how to tell my boss of 11 years I am leaving.
Dear sir,
Effective two weeks from today, I will no longer require (firm's name) services as an employer.
Kind regards,
Nerm (if that's your real name) :)
Yeah its hard. My last resignation was the hardest I have ever given and I have shifted jobs at-least once every 2-3 years for the past 15 years. Some years I had 4-5 jobs in a single year...
I learned, its like a band-aid, you just go in and do it quick. Dont fluff it, or drag it on. Just walk in, sit down and say it.
My last one went like this:
Boss: What do you need?
Me: I need to let you know I accepted another potion and need to turn in my notice.
Boss: :wtf:
Luckly he was cool. It hurt but he understood. This has usually been the case. We then chatted about the gig and why Im jumping.
Other though have been pretty rough. You can usually see those coming because they are a dick-head or hot tempered. With those same thing. Quick with few words and let them do the talking.
Im happy for you dude and I wish you the best of luck!!!
My boss a few jobs ago worked from home my last week. On my last day didn't say a word to me until I IM'd him at noon and asked if that would be all. :wub:
Quote from: that1guy15 on January 13, 2016, 03:19:14 PM
I learned, its like a band-aid, you just go in and do it quick. Dont fluff it, or drag it on. Just walk in, sit down and say it.
Truth!
Quote from: that1guy15 on January 13, 2016, 03:19:14 PM
Yeah its hard. My last resignation was the hardest I have ever given and I have shifted jobs at-least once every 2-3 years for the past 15 years. Some years I had 4-5 jobs in a single year...
I learned, its like a band-aid, you just go in and do it quick. Dont fluff it, or drag it on. Just walk in, sit down and say it.
My last one went like this:
Boss: What do you need?
Me: I need to let you know I accepted another potion and need to turn in my notice.
Boss: :wtf:
Luckly he was cool. It hurt but he understood. This has usually been the case. We then chatted about the gig and why Im jumping.
Other though have been pretty rough. You can usually see those coming because they are a dick-head or hot tempered. With those same thing. Quick with few words and let them do the talking.
Im happy for you dude and I wish you the best of luck!!!
Truth.. I'm in the same boat, and many others I hear. I don't think I've lasted longer than 2 years at any job - always left to get to that next step. It's very weird working where I am and being like... there's no next step....
Quote from: ristau5741 on January 06, 2016, 12:07:48 PM
there was something in the back of my heard regarding consideration of your total income to include all the benefits/salary/timeoff/perks to figure your total income.
don't remember the exact wording bu that's the jist of it.
'total compensation' is the term I couldn't remember
Quote from: routerdork on January 13, 2016, 03:37:04 PM
Quote from: that1guy15 on January 13, 2016, 03:19:14 PM
I learned, its like a band-aid, you just go in and do it quick. Dont fluff it, or drag it on. Just walk in, sit down and say it.
Truth!
it's all business, leave the personal side aside.
When I was younger, I bounced around, even as a teacher. I made it to 2.5 years at Microsoft as the longest I've been in one place. Then I taught for 11 years at the same school. That was quite a stretch... but I also enjoyed it there, very much. I also learned how to enjoy things better by listening to manager-tools.com podcasts. They helped me to understand how to be managed, even by a manager that I didn't like. Those podcasts were like a big shot of maturity, and I'm glad for them.
I'm now 2.25 years at my current firm, and I would have quit at several junctures had I still had the attitude of my younger days. I really do like working where I am and see myself there for a long haul.
When leaving, get a meeting with your boss 1 on 1 and let him know that you've got an offer from (x) and that you've accepted it. Let it go from there. If he wants to wish you well, he will. If he wants to just be businesslike, he will. Then you move on.
NEVER announce your departure in a team meeting. I did that once and it was a mess. I really embarrassed my boss and his boss, which was something I didn't want to do.
I sent my resignation letter to my boss yesterday and it actually turned pretty funny because with the timing he thought I had won the lottery. He was surprised but understands I am doing this to better myself and my career.
Quote from: Nerm on January 15, 2016, 07:50:31 AM
I sent my resignation letter to my boss yesterday and it actually turned pretty funny because with the timing he thought I had won the lottery. He was surprised but understands I am doing this to better myself and my career.
LOL that's awesome!
Quote from: deanwebb on January 14, 2016, 08:04:46 AM
When leaving, get a meeting with your boss 1 on 1 and let him know that you've got an offer from (x) and that you've accepted it. Let it go from there. If he wants to wish you well, he will. If he wants to just be businesslike, he will. Then you move on.
I am glad everything turned out well. Just wanted to add to this point though. 1 on 1 is always the best thing however, i think it is sometimes best not to mention that you got an offer from (x) company. Some bosses are dicks and may try to railroad you.
Well my last day is Friday and I start my new gig on Monday. To be honest I am a little nervous as it is such a change in atmosphere. The largest client I support for my (about to be previous) employer is only about 600 users and three locations. Starting Monday I will be working on the networks supporting over 10,000 users at over 30 locations around the world. Now after just typing that I am even more nervous lol. I am really looking forward to the learning opportunity I am about to be presented with and if nothing else those stats will look great on my resume for future opportunities.
Additionally my (about to be previous) employer has suggested that I can still do work for them as a consultant/contractor on the side. Anyone ever done this for a previous employer and have pros/cons to bring up?
Quote from: routerdork on January 15, 2016, 08:13:45 AM
Quote from: Nerm on January 15, 2016, 07:50:31 AM
I sent my resignation letter to my boss yesterday and it actually turned pretty funny because with the timing he thought I had won the lottery. He was surprised but understands I am doing this to better myself and my career.
LOL that's awesome!
Yea I wasn't thinking about it sent in my resignation the day after the winning numbers were announced lol. Gave us both a good laugh.
Side work can be really dangerous. You've got a priority to make your time available to your employer, and if there's an emergency that comes up which causes you to miss a consulting deadline, you can be on the hook for that, financially. Even if there aren't any deadlines, if you don't have everything 100% in writing in a contract, you are open to a boss "forgetting" a promise made to get you to do work, and you get screwed. If they're in the same or related industries, there could be a conflict of interest issue.
The most I'll do for moonlighting would be hour-long discussions outside of normal business hours about this technology or that. If I can't make the meeting, it's easily rescheduled because I'm just providing information for a non-urgent matter. I have a broker handle those engagements for me and I do about one every 6 months or so. But I can't be on the hook for a project or anything that has a commitment of time longer than tomorrow night. If there's a week of work to do, I can't accept it, as I don't know what kind of production outage we might have in the next 7 days that will demand all of my time for my current employer.
Lots of cons, no pro beyond a little extra beer money. Not worth the risk, in my view.
Completely see where you are coming from and I definitely have no interest in that kind of situation. We were not talking about me doing major projects on the side. Would be more of a "hey got an hour to meet on specs for a project, review a config or log, etc?" kind of thing.
Quote from: Nerm on February 09, 2016, 01:12:39 PM
Completely see where you are coming from and I definitely have no interest in that kind of situation. We were not talking about me doing major projects on the side. Would be more of a "hey got an hour to meet on specs for a project, review a config or log, etc?" kind of thing.
You still want to be careful... what's your liability like in those situations? If you say that a config looks good and there's a flaw in it with something that they're doing, are you ready for a protracted legal mess to prove that it's not your fault? Or do you have insurance to cover it all and settle things without involving you too much? If it's anything beyond, "What do you think of Vendor-X and how they implement such-and-such", you may have some liability issues that will come back to bite you. And if you're not an LLC or corporation, then
ALL your assets are forfeitable in order to make restitution of damages, if so ordered by a court. Again, huge, huge risk. You will want some ironclad contracts and disclaimers and some kind of liability limitation to cover yourself in the event when (not if) something goes wrong.
Thanks for the input. If they want to do anything more than "what do you think about this" kind of stuff I will definitly want an air-tight contract absolving myself of any and all potential liability.
Update: Been in my new role for almost a month now. I have found that even though my new employer is a "large" company by headcount the IT environment is really more medium-sized which is great for me as it seems a lot of my "big company red tape and politics" kind of concerns do not currently exist here. I know it is early on but so far I have been really happy with the move.
Updates?
Quote from: TeXJ on March 24, 2016, 03:58:19 PM
Updates?
No specific updates, but I can say I am happy I made the move. :)
Then you made the right move.
If you are working for a big MNC, then there you will get so many chances to learn more as they provides several training ocassionaly. But if you just starting your career and just want to start earning, then you can go for small tier companies.