Networking-Forums.com

Professional Discussions => Routing and Switching => Topic started by: TheGreatDoc on January 30, 2016, 08:28:04 AM

Title: Need pro tips for switches!
Post by: TheGreatDoc on January 30, 2016, 08:28:04 AM
Hi All,

We are moving to 10G backbone, We currently have an ASR1002-X with 8Gb RAM, using the 6 SPF ports in 2 2x1G port-channels. The port-channels are connected to a 3750G as a backbone switch. Each port-channel are 1 for LAN and 1 for WAN. We currently connect our transit providers to this switch and the ASR1002X only run the eBGP.

To this 3750G is connected other 3750G with a 3x1G Port Channel, this one is acting as our MAN Router. To this switch is connected our edge routers with also several port-channels.

What Im going to do (If you dont say anything better) is:

Change the 3750G backbone switch to a 2x WS-C2960S-24TD-L (with FlexStack) having a 4x10G and 48G switch for interconnecting the ASR1002X with our new transit provider 10G uplink and the new L3 Switch.

The 3750G L3 switch will be switch to a WS-C3850-24T-E with 2x10G uplinks. One to our needmoarbandwith router and the other 10G to connect with the 2960S. The WS-C3850-48T-E can also be an option, as it can have 4x10G uplink module, giving us a little bit more 10G interconnection.

For our Server Racks, im thinking in 1xWS-C2960S-24TD-L

Please, take in consideration we are a small company, our budget is small :)
Title: Re: Need pro tips for switches!
Post by: deanwebb on January 30, 2016, 10:22:14 AM
Get a Nexus9K and anticipate your growth! :problem?:
Title: Re: Need pro tips for switches!
Post by: TheGreatDoc on January 30, 2016, 11:39:44 AM
Quote from: deanwebb on January 30, 2016, 10:22:14 AM
Get a Nexus9K and anticipate your growth! :problem?:
I said our budget is small, but we are not poor. We can get something better   :rofl: :rofl:
Title: Re: Need pro tips for switches!
Post by: wintermute000 on January 30, 2016, 05:41:55 PM
The 2960 series has small buffers and as an access switch is a terrible choice for server and high throughout scenarios. If you want to stick to cisco, minimum 3850, ideally 4948 or nexus 3000 preferably. You can afford asrs and 10gb backbone, if you can't afford those models look at other vendors like brocade or HP
Whatever you do, do not use an access class switch
Title: Re: Need pro tips for switches!
Post by: TheGreatDoc on January 31, 2016, 03:38:57 AM
Quote from: wintermute000 on January 30, 2016, 05:41:55 PM
The 2960 series has small buffers and as an access switch is a terrible choice for server and high throughout scenarios. If you want to stick to cisco, minimum 3850, ideally 4948 or nexus 3000 preferably. You can afford asrs and 10gb backbone, if you can't afford those models look at other vendors like brocade or HP
Whatever you do, do not use an access class switch

Can you be a little bit more specific? We need "3 kind" of switches. What for each you mean?

Also, our Server Rack is for "private use". I mean, we dont provide hosting or housing services, the Server Rack BW use is minimal (less than 100Mbps) for that the 2960G.
Title: Re: Need pro tips for switches!
Post by: wintermute000 on January 31, 2016, 04:31:33 AM
Look up the models, they're model numbers
Title: Re: Need pro tips for switches!
Post by: TheGreatDoc on January 31, 2016, 05:51:10 AM
Yeah I know, but you are picking up 3 different models.

Do you mean the 3k nexus for interconnect, 3850 for MAN Routing and 4948 for servers?
Title: Re: Need pro tips for switches!
Post by: wintermute000 on January 31, 2016, 06:27:57 AM
No, I'm giving you three options that are not bottom end 2960s
Title: Re: Need pro tips for switches!
Post by: deanwebb on January 31, 2016, 07:25:48 AM
Quote from: wintermute000 on January 31, 2016, 06:27:57 AM
No, I'm giving you three options that are not bottom end 2960s

Right, any one of those switch model numbers would be good. I remember looking over a 3850 and 4948 as an upgrade for the server rack at my last company, and then I saw that HP Procurve switches had some great features for their price.

But do not use the 2960. Those switches are probably going to disappoint. Port speed is one thing, but one must also consider their backplane speed and how many packets/sec they can handle, things like that.
Title: Re: Need pro tips for switches!
Post by: Reggle on January 31, 2016, 01:46:41 PM
I agree with the above. You don't want a 2960 as core or backbone of anything due to the buffers. 3650, 3850 or 4948 if you stay with Cisco.
Title: Re: Need pro tips for switches!
Post by: TheGreatDoc on February 01, 2016, 06:33:12 AM
I'm back!

What about the WS-C3850-12XS-S for Core and WS-C3850-48T-E with C3850-NM-4-10G for internal routing?
Title: Re: Need pro tips for switches!
Post by: SimonV on February 01, 2016, 06:43:24 AM
Do you need that many SFP+ ports on your core?
Title: Re: Need pro tips for switches!
Post by: TheGreatDoc on February 01, 2016, 07:05:32 AM
Quote from: SimonV on February 01, 2016, 06:43:24 AM
Do you need that many SFP+ ports on your core?

Thats a very good question and have a very good answer (or I hope so)

With 4x10G switch for core is fine for now, p.e. the WS-C3850-48T-S with C3850-NM-4-10G.

In a first step, we need 1x10G for our main transit provider, 1x10G for the Local Routing and 1x10G for the ASR (BGP). With that, we will have a 5G routing capacity (the 10G to ASR is for WAN (BGP) and LAN (Local Routing).

The thing is, only 1x 10G port left. In about a year or less, we will upgrade our second uplink to 10G and then, all 10G ports will be used. For the price difference between the WS-C3850-48T-S with C3850-NM-4-10G and the WS-C3850-12XS-S there is no other option than the 12 SFP+ (upgradeable to 16 SFP+).

Dont you think so?
Title: Re: Need pro tips for switches!
Post by: icecream-guy on February 01, 2016, 08:25:01 AM
The 4948 10Ge are EOL   Last Day Sale was 2/28/2013.  they go Last day of support on 2/29/2018.
The 4948 are EOL   Last Day Sale was 8/1/2013.  they go Last day of support on 7/31/2018.
Title: Re: Need pro tips for switches!
Post by: dlots on February 01, 2016, 09:21:52 AM
I would probably take a look at the 4500X (WS-C4500X-16), I don't know how much they run, but I would be willing to bet since we have 2 they are fairly cheap.

Update they are listed at 11K currently
https://www.cdw.com/shop/products/Cisco-Catalyst-4500-X-switch-16-ports-rack-mountable/2814805.aspx
Title: Re: Need pro tips for switches!
Post by: TheGreatDoc on February 01, 2016, 10:00:53 AM
Quote from: dlots on February 01, 2016, 09:21:52 AM
I would probably take a look at the 4500X (WS-C4500X-16), I don't know how much they run, but I would be willing to bet since we have 2 they are fairly cheap.

Update they are listed at 11K currently
https://www.cdw.com/shop/products/Cisco-Catalyst-4500-X-switch-16-ports-rack-mountable/2814805.aspx

Yes, its more expensive the 4500X than the 3850.
Title: Re: Need pro tips for switches!
Post by: wintermute000 on February 01, 2016, 03:47:09 PM
4948 replacement is 4948e, that's what I meant apologies
Title: Re: Need pro tips for switches!
Post by: TheGreatDoc on February 02, 2016, 01:01:28 AM
But what do you think about the C3850-12XS-S for Core and C3850-48T-E with C3850-NM-4-10G for internal routing?
Title: Re: Need pro tips for switches!
Post by: routerdork on February 02, 2016, 10:00:15 AM
My advice to you is think about scale. How fast the company is moving will dictate a lot of things like how many 1/10G ports you will need over time. I'm at a small company myself that expects very large growth over the next few years. So instead of providing one option I'm giving multiple with the pros/cons so management can decide if they want to spend the extra cash up front or know that we will need to replace some of these items later on that will cost more in the long run.

One thing you haven't mentioned is redundancy. If you buy a 12-port 10G switch and it fails, what's your recovery plan? Is waiting on TAC replacement good enough?
Title: Re: Need pro tips for switches!
Post by: TheGreatDoc on February 02, 2016, 12:31:56 PM
Ok, this is going crazy.

I just noticed that the 4500X-16SFP+ are cheaper than the 3850-XS-S.....

And I just noticed that hardware specs of 4500 are better than 3850....
Title: Re: Need pro tips for switches!
Post by: wintermute000 on February 02, 2016, 04:58:38 PM
Talk to your VAR or get access/training to the Cisco commerce workplace. I don't think you're doing it correctly (did you add all the necessary components like power supplies?)

A base WS-C4500X-F-16 SFP+ (IP BASE) with dual PSU  comes to 38,000AUD list price.
A base WS3850-12XS-S (IP BASE) with dual 750W PSU comes to 28,000AUD list price.

A fair difference.
Title: Re: Need pro tips for switches!
Post by: TheGreatDoc on February 03, 2016, 01:19:49 AM
Quote from: wintermute000 on February 02, 2016, 04:58:38 PM
Talk to your VAR or get access/training to the Cisco commerce workplace. I don't think you're doing it correctly (did you add all the necessary components like power supplies?)

A base WS-C4500X-F-16 SFP+ (IP BASE) with dual PSU  comes to 38,000AUD list price.
A base WS3850-12XS-S (IP BASE) with dual 750W PSU comes to 28,000AUD list price.

A fair difference.

Wow, I have waaaaaaaay differents prices than you said. Also, 3850-12XS-S have 350WAC PSU not 750. I dont like to say my prices, but I will tell you something:

I have the WS-3850-12XS-S with dual 350WAC PSU at ~12,000AUD (New, and our provider give us Lifetime warranty)

Since your list prices with mines have that big difference, I'm going to re-check with our providers they come with dual PSU.

Anyways, 3850-XS or 4500X-16SFP+?
Title: Re: Need pro tips for switches!
Post by: matgar on February 03, 2016, 02:26:46 AM
Quote from: TheGreatDoc on February 03, 2016, 01:19:49 AM
Since your list prices with mines have that big difference, I'm going to re-check with our providers they come with dual PSU.
There might be a big difference between list price and the price your provider gives you, if you have a existing relation its quite possible the price you got was with your default discounts included.
Title: Re: Need pro tips for switches!
Post by: wintermute000 on February 03, 2016, 03:59:29 AM
LIST PRICE as matgar says. nobody pays list price. ever.
 
Also, AUD is low. And Cisco's pricing for different regions is never the same. Finally, there may be a deal going on for your region for 4500Xs.

But lets take the AUD price at face value. Your seller probably gets 60% or even 70% discount. Thats 8400 @ 70% or 11200 @ 60%. Stick 10-20% margin on it and there's your 12000AUD price....
Title: Re: Need pro tips for switches!
Post by: icecream-guy on February 03, 2016, 08:27:12 AM
Quote from: routerdork on February 02, 2016, 10:00:15 AM
My advice to you is think about scale. How fast the company is moving will dictate a lot of things like how many 1/10G ports you will need over time. I'm at a small company myself that expects very large growth over the next few years. So instead of providing one option I'm giving multiple with the pros/cons so management can decide if they want to spend the extra cash up front or know that we will need to replace some of these items later on that will cost more in the long run.

One thing you haven't mentioned is redundancy. If you buy a 12-port 10G switch and it fails, what's your recovery plan? Is waiting on TAC replacement good enough?

On the growth, as the company grows and the services flourish, your downtime maintenance windows  become increasingly minute.
like routerdork says provide multiple scenarios/solutions, i.e.  meets today's needs, meets needs in 3 years based on management planned growth, and meets needs in 5 years based on same, give management the options and let them make the decision.

last thing you want to to recommend a 15K piece of crap that will need to be upgraded next year. leave it to the ones running the company with your well provided knowledgeable lists of pro's and con's for each recommendation. That way you don't look like crap in management's eyes and they can't blame you for "their decision".

Title: Re: Need pro tips for switches!
Post by: srg on February 03, 2016, 09:48:39 AM
4500x over 3850 any day
Title: Re: Need pro tips for switches!
Post by: TheGreatDoc on February 04, 2016, 09:36:18 AM
Please, dont blame me like hell, but I think we are finally going for a 4900M
Title: Re: Need pro tips for switches!
Post by: deanwebb on February 04, 2016, 09:48:05 AM
Quote from: TheGreatDoc on February 04, 2016, 09:36:18 AM
Please, dont blame me like hell, but I think we are finally going for a 4900M
No flames for you, don't worry. Purchasing decisions happen, there's not much we can do about them.
Title: Re: Need pro tips for switches!
Post by: LynK on February 04, 2016, 10:57:06 AM
Quote from: dlots on February 01, 2016, 09:21:52 AM
I would probably take a look at the 4500X (WS-C4500X-16), I don't know how much they run, but I would be willing to bet since we have 2 they are fairly cheap.

Update they are listed at 11K currently
https://www.cdw.com/shop/products/Cisco-Catalyst-4500-X-switch-16-ports-rack-mountable/2814805.aspx

This. I second this notion. Or a N3K
Title: Re: Need pro tips for switches!
Post by: wintermute000 on February 04, 2016, 02:46:44 PM
Not the worst decision, it's better than 3850 or 2960
Title: Re: Need pro tips for switches!
Post by: routerdork on February 05, 2016, 09:01:18 AM
We used 4900M's for aggregation switches at the ISP I worked at. Very solid and full of features. Plus with the 8-port 10G module and some CVR-X2-SFP's we could aggregate 1/10G MetroE rings. Never had an issue with any of the ones we had in the field.